Save Lewisham Hospital

Save Lewisham Hospital

There’s a plan to close the A&E unit at Lewisham hospital. This is a bad thing. Please sign the petition, write to your mp, and attend the march on Saturday 24th November at 2pm.

Also tell the special adminsitrator what you think and why. Advice on how to complete the form from the savelewishamhospital website:

If you don’t understand questions 1-6, just click ‘strongly disagree’ or ‘next’. (Q1 – Q3 relate to ‘financial efficiency’. Q4 – Q6 relate to Queen Mary’s Sidcup becoming a ‘health campus’)
Answer ‘strongly disagree’ to question 7 if you can – it relates to selling off hospital buildings. They want to sell 60% of Lewisham Hospital’s buildings. Once they are gone, there is no turning back.
If you don’t understand questions 8 to 12, click ‘strongly disagree or ‘next’. (Q8 – Q12 relate to PFI and community care. It is worth noting there is no suggestion to re-negotiate the PFI debt. So it would still be paid in full, from your taxes, but would come out of the Department of Health’s budget)
Answer ‘strongly disagree’ to question 13! It is about Lewisham A&E. And use question 14 to tell them why you want to save it and any ideas you may have.
Answer ‘neither of these options’ to question 15! – This is a complex question about maternity services. If the A&E closes, they may have to close the maternity wards (obstetric-led units) because emergencies during labour could be risky.
Question 16. This is a place to say you believe Lewisham A&E is crucial to safe maternity care in Lewisham Hospital, so please don’t close either.
Question 17 – 20, keep clicking ‘strongly disagree’ or ‘next’ if you like. (Q17-18 relate to surgery. Q19-20 relate to merging South London and Lewisham trusts.)
Question 21 wants to know if you want Kings College Hospital or another (maybe private) company to run Princess Royal Hospital, Farnborough. Click next or support Kings taking over.
Question 22 wants to know if you would like some debts at South London Hospital to be written off. Support that idea, or click ‘next’.
Click through questions 23 and 24 if you want. Or write any comments you may want to make in question 24.
You have to answer question 25.
Answer the remaining questions about you. You do not need to say you live in Lewisham or that Lewisham is your nearest hospital, if that is the case. To date, the administrator has undermined our opposition by portraying it as local selfishness. So, if you don’t want the administrator to argue that only people in Lewisham oppose his plans, don’t let them know you are in Lewisham (if you aren’t in Lewisham, please answer the questions).
SUBMIT the form. Make sure you don’t fall asleep before submitting the form.

Part of an email last week from Heidi Alexander MP:

I am extremely concerned about these proposals. I don’t see why Lewisham should pay the price for financial failures elsewhere in the NHS. I believe the A&E departments at other hospitals such as Kings and Woolwich are already at capacity and I am very concerned about the impact that the proposed changes could have on patient safety. I also believe local mums should be able to have their babies in their local hospital and that it is just wrong to ask women and their families to travel to unfamiliar places to give birth.

Yesterday I set up a petition which calls for a full, admitting A&E and full maternity service to be retained at Lewisham. You can sign the petition by clicking on the link below:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/lewisham-hospital/

I will also be speaking at a public meeting about the proposals next Thursday (8 November 2012). The meeting will be from 6pm to 8pm and will take place at the Lessoff Auditorium, Lewisham Hospital . It would be great to see you there.

It would also be useful if you could encourage everyone you know to sign the petition, so feel free to forward this email to your contacts. We have a huge fight on our hands and the community needs to be clear in its opposition to these proposals.

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41 Comments

Filed under Not Blackheath but nearby

41 responses to “Save Lewisham Hospital

  1. Ed

    ?! What a disaster for the area . I thought that the Queen Elizabeth in Woolwich was also closing ?! Or is that just old incorrect news from last year ?

  2. Rupert Fiennes

    Umm, why is it a bad idea, exactly? I’m a fan of Lewisham A&E, they are much better than QE, especially for children, but something other than “a Labour MP says this is bad” is needed before the rest of us salute and do as we’re told. Do we have an alternative suggestion? Shut QE for example?

    • Anonymous

      It is a particularly disastrous suggestion as it will also lead to the closure of maternity services at Lewisham (you cannot have a maternity service without A&E). QEH and King’s are already full to capacity and there is simply not room at these hospitals to take on all births from Lewisham. This will put mothers and babies’ lives at risk

  3. Surely Lewisham / Catford folks having to travel another 15 minutes to QE to get A&E care is quite a “bad idea” I would have thought?

  4. It would mean there is only one A&E left in south east London to service 750,000 people as Queen Mary’s Sidcup has lost their’s already. Now that sounds pretty bad…

    • Andrew Nisbet

      You have to realise that, thanks to health and safety legislation, increased fire awareness campaigns (incl smoke alarms) that the demand for A&E is falling rapidly. The main customers are now Friday and Saturday drunks having accidents. For the same reason demand for Fire service is declining with far fewer fires. In some places the biggest demand on he fire services are road traffic accidents. The pattern of ‘emergencies’ is changing. As for maternity, child birth emergencies are not handled by A&E! A&E is largely patch and mend before sending off to theatre and theatres will remain at Lewisham. A&E is also becoming more specialised on heart and road traffic injuries and these need to be concentrated in centres of excellence; they cannot be implemented everywhere as there are not enough specialists. And it is inefficient. I agree the PFi should be bought out as LT did with the Underground ones. Expensive though…

      • Rupert Fiennes

        On the other hand Andrew, it seems busy enough to me when I’ve had to be there. Of course, part of this is doubtless due to our GP’s having negotiated their very large pay rise and out of hours exception with the last government. It’s hard to give definitive answers when your experience is coloured by 6 hour waits with a dislocated shoulder / torn muscle / boy with grumbling appendix etc :-(

      • D Saunders

        Theatres will go at Lewisham. If the A&E goes so do the Emergency Theatres. The elective theatres will stay. This will mean a UCC will deal with nothing more than cuts and scrapes. Off to Woolwich if you have anything more.
        It will be the death nail for the hospital as the middle grade doctors will also go as they can’t train here.
        Sell the land pay off Woolwich PFi

  5. Its not just the A&E that’s under threat but also maternity services. Less people may be having accidents but the birth rate is increasing and local mums shouldn’t be forced to go to Kings or QE in Woolwich – neither of which are terribly accessible on public transport to the majority of Lewisham borough.

  6. Goodness – “thanks to health and safety legislation” the demand for A&E is falling? You might like to tell that to my little four-year old daughter when we’ve been down there twice in the last few years with a super-high temperature. If only she’d keep off the vodka, eh?

  7. Emily

    ThePirateKing raises a really good point – the children’s A&E in Lewisham is excellent and we don’t know what will happen to that. Or to maternity services, which I understand are already really busy there. Yes A&E services need to change with better care in the community and more urgent care centres for non emergency cases – but why did they build a new A&E in Lewisham only to decide to close it because of a PFI debt at a completely different trust? Its a massive waste of money and seems to be a financial, not a clinical decision.

  8. “You do not need to say you live in Lewisham or that Lewisham is your nearest hospital, if that is the case. To date, the administrator has undermined our opposition by portraying it as local selfishness. So, if you don’t want the administrator to argue that only people in Lewisham oppose his plans, don’t let them know you are in Lewisham (if you aren’t in Lewisham, please answer the questions).”

    So the only views that count are those of people people who are not local and thus unaffected by the closure? Utterly bizarre logic.

  9. Vicky Penner

    I can’t believe that anybody is seriously suggesting that closing frontline emergency care like this can POSSIBLY be justified. As a mum of three small children, we’ve spent a lot of time down there in the last few years with non blanching rashes, head bumps and a variety of exciting things that GPs can’t handle. The excellent children’s A&E dpt is due to close alongside the main department. 

    Really….. is it just a coinicidence that it’s a man suggesting that maternity care is not linked to having a fully functioning A&E dpt. Just to clear up any confusion Mr Andrew Nisbet, childbirth goes wrong sometimes. When that happens, resuscitation specialists and other emergency staff from A&E are brought in to stabilise patients. Without this back-up, critical patients will have to travel by ambulance to QE or Kings – a journey that can take anything from 15 mins to an hour depending on traffic. Your other assumption that the theatres will stay open is also completely wrong – the plans proposed involve demolishing the buildings on up to 60% of the hospital site (INCLUDING most of the operating theatres) to sell the land to private developers. All this to pay off QE’s debt. I suspect you don’t spend much time at the hospital to be able to speak with such conviction that these services are not needed. I can assure you that all these wards are at absolute breaking point with patients – as are the same departments in neighbouring hospitals. Once you close A&E, the other departments go too like dominos including all major surgery where emergency care may be needed and the outstanding neo natal unit. Lewisham hospital will be no more than a glorified outpatient clinic and waiting times and clinical care at other hospitals will be seriously compromised since they will now be taking in more than a million extra patients that would have previously gone to Lewisham or Queen Mary’s. 

    Lewisham needs it’s local teaching hospital, this is an outrageous decision with no benefit whatsoever to patients or hospital staff. Many people locally can’t just jump in cars to head to Woolwich -travelling from Lewisham to QE currently requires 3 different buses. Not easy at all for older patients or for patients within the poorer parts of our borough.

    This decision is being rushed through via legislation that was never supposed to be used for this kind of massive closure. My feelings are that there are many ways to save money within the NHS including putting an end to these sham “consultations” (this latest one has cost them more than £2million to produce). If it’s all about cost saving, why bulldoze down the newly refurbished A&E department that has only just been finished at a cost to the taxpayer of £12million.  Destroying frontline A&E provision like this is shocking. It’s the basic health resource that all of us need – Bupa won’t help you much if you’re a genuine emergency.  

    If you want to understand the motives behind this decision, you may want to google for a map of NHS A&E units closing and the sheer volume across the country is frightening.

    The whole thing stinks big time and I am planning to be on the march on Saturday 24th November with our young family and a big double buggy teaching my small children about democracy, freedom of speech and the importance of emergency healthcare for everybody. 

  10. richard

    Vicky its good that your kids will be on the march as they will be picking up the bill for our current out of control spending.

  11. Barry

    Anyone who believes a comment like “the demand for A&E services are falling” justifies closing an A&E department deserves to visit A&E having broken a limb. Even out of “drunks-beating-each-other” hours you can expect to wait a couple of hours to be seen by a doctor. Tell me this is good. I bet the Queen doesn’t have to wait that long.

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  13. Ed

    “If you want to understand the motives behind this decision, you may want to google for a map of NHS A&E units closing and the sheer volume across the country is frightening.”

    The map is at: http://goo.gl/f6i9J

    • I have been heavily involved with the campaign in Lewisham and I know all about the Government’s strategy. However, this map came as a bit suprise.

      It’s obvious what our response must be: we must get all together. If we don’t then we will end up like the US.

      If we can like the campaigns we can mount all-out resistance to the Government.

      • richard

        What is the government’s strategy? It appears to be to modestly reduce the rate of increase in government spending. Public sector vested interests seem to have a strategy of scaring tax payers into perpetuating the status quo.

      • I guess I’m worried that if I modestly have a heart attack, I won’t have an A&E department nearby…

    • Can’t help noticing that Lewisham Hospital doesn’t appear on that map.

  14. Andrew Nisbet

    I (and other family members) have had to wait a minimum of 4 hours to be treated at an A&E when there have only been 6 other patients in the queue (with admin staff twiddling their thumbs) or 60. When we were forced to go to QE recently waiting time was 30mins. Waiting time has nothing to do with demand and everything to do with availability of resources. PFI is certainly distorting the issue but you have to look beyond that. I was born in a cottage hospital with no A&E and many other maternity sites do not have one. Bigger maternity units have more staff to call on. And dont pull the male argument (how weak) I have 4 kids, 2 born extremely prem, and dealt with 2 OD incidents and had to drive them to hosp myself. But I am also aware of medical changes and staffing issues (70 hour weeks?!). The choice is between 3 or 4 poorly equipped/staffed A&Es (or maternity units) or 1 excellently equipped and staffed A&E/Maternity unit. Which do you prefer? Either way some people are going to make it and some are not. Paramedic services have also changed the picture so dashing off to A&E is not the only solution. In the end there is no perfect answer but there are lower cost and more clinically effective ones.

  15. bu my opinion no region should stay without hospital and proper health care – why people pay taxes

  16. Vicky Penner

    I’m sorry Andrew, but I really feel that some your blanket assumptions about this issue are very seriously misguided. At best naive but also just completely and quite dangerously wrong. The maternity and A&E departments at Lewisham Hospital are not “poorly equipped or staffed” at all. This shows a complete lack of respect to the people working at the hospital. As I said before, they’ve just refurbished the A&E department there at vast expense but now plan to bulldoze it based on a poorly written, rushed through proposal which is using dodgy legislation to get the result they want. All NHS hospitals have mixed comments from patients but I think you’ll find that Lewisham has an excellent reputation with most GPs as a very effective and well run teaching hospital. People I know who have had first hand experience as a patient consistently speak very highly of it. My personal experiences there with my family have all been very positive and this includes maternity care (3 times), adult and child A&E and other departments. I have found the staff there generally to be excellent and the departments spotlessly clean. In fact, I spoke to another mum this week with experience of the neonatal unit there and she felt very strongly that this hospital should be recognised as a model of good practice – the care she has had in that unit has been “amazing.”

    I’m at a bit of a loss for where you’re getting your ideas from………Have you actually ever visited this hospital???!! I don’t think even the trust administrator trying to currently close it down would describe it as “poorly equipped or staffed.”

    On a broader view, there is very little point having so called centres of excellence (which conveniently cost less to provide) IF IT TAKES TOO LONG FOR PATIENTS TO GET THERE AND THEY DIE ON THE WAY – paramedics can only do so much out on the street or in an ambulance. The ambulance service and the police are also seriously against this downgrading. I agree with Heidi Alexander (MP) that every single borough in London should have a fully functioning A&E and maternity provision. We all know how consistently bad the traffic is in our city, how dense our population is currently…..and how much its increasing. As a major international city, we are also unfortunately but realistically a terrorist target – it’s not going to help us very much in the future if many of our A&E’s have been closed down in the event of a major incident. This came up as long ago as 7/7 when victims were ferried far and wide across London since the nearest hospitals had no emergency care provision. For another map detailing the closures around London and nationally, try this link: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2224150/NHS-wastes-7million-sham-consultation-A-E-closures–reveal-SIX-casualty-units-cut.html

    I don’t agree with you that A&E is just a “patch-up” resource – please remember it actually saves people’s lives too!! It’s the most basic health resource we all need and it should be provided within a reasonable distance. As for leaving us with a maternity unit that “only accepts low risk births,” how on earth can mothers or midwives predict before the event how their birth is going to go??!!! When I had my second child, he had the cord around his neck in labour – I was on that operating table within minutes at Lewisham and they got him out quickly and safely with an emergency c-section. If emergency care had not been offered there, I’d have had to travel 20 mins in an ambulance to a neighbouring hospital at that point. My son’s heartbeat had dropped to almost nothing – he would have suffered a lack of oxygen to the brain causing either cerebral palsy or death. But then Andrew, according to you “some people are going to make it and some are not”. Nice. The days of mothers and children dying in childbirth should be behind us, not in front of us. I actually struggle to see the point at all of a hospital without any emergency care provision – we all know how unpredictable health conditions or birth etc. can be. Even the most straightforward broken leg can turn into an emergency unexpectedly….

    I’m sorry to all for yet another long email, but I think some of these misguided assumptions being bandied around are just plain wrong and dangerous too. Lewisham is an excellent teaching hospital in a much needed and diverse area that should be championed and protected within the NHS, not downgraded ridiculously quickly.

    • “After discovery of Goldern Hour [ that victim's chances of survival are greatest if they receive care within a short period of time after a severe injury], it was thought to provide the care to victim at first contact, wherever the victim may be. The reason behind this was that a substantial time is lost between transportation of the patient to the hospital.”

      In the Lewisham rail crash of 4 December 1957 there were 90 fatalities and a large number people were taken to hospital, of which 109 were detained.

      Analysis of the casualties of this and the earlier Harrow and Wealdstone rail crash (8 October 1952) lead to the discovery of the Goldern Hour.

      It is one of those ironies of history that the cuts will fall on Lewisham.

      • Andrew Nisbet

        So Lewisham should have a world class A&E and maternity while Bexley has nothing? But then what good was A&E at QM to those who live in Erith but every value to the residents of Chislehurst? Using political boundaries (or a railway accident 60 years ago) to justify the location of hospitals is hardly sensible. My daughter was born IN Kings and still suffered cerebral palsy. An A&E at the end of every street would not be close enough for some poor victims but is clearly impractical as would be one enormous one in Birmingham. The answer is somewhere in between and the question is how to decide what that ratio is and where they are located.

        What I am also hearing is emotion; no one wants to see ‘their’ hospital affected. What kind of decision making process is that? If emotion was a good way of making decisions why is our divorce rate so high?.

        At 1.7MILLION the (50% admin and 50% clinical) the NHS (incl GPs) is the 4th largest employer IN THE WORLD (after the Chinese army, Walmart and the Indian railways). It costs £126billion pa exceeded only by Pension payments (old age, excluding civil service) of 138bn. with Defence spending at a mere 46bn which comes after welfare payments of 62bn (2013 budget).

        Sorry folks but the world has changed and continues to do so and so must decisions on how health, a bottomless pit, and other services can be sensibly provided in a country with net imports of fuel and food, declining exports, a crashed financial services sector and declining productivity (thanks unions and EU).

        What would be more useful would be a map of those A&E/Maternity units that are planned to remain open and how far they are from their prospective patients and whether they can get treatment in the ‘golden hour’ be it in A&E or the side of the road (as I had with a suspect heart attack within 10 mins of my call to NHS direct…). And yes, cost per person saved is the harsh reality of real life and tough decisions in today’s world.

  17. “So Lewisham should have a world class A&E and maternity while Bexley has nothing?”

    Did I say that Bexley should have nothing? I don’t recall that at all.

    Health service studies suggest that the optimum size for an A&E in this country is somwhere in the region of 200,000 to 250,00. Lewisham’s population has risen 10 percent in the last five years and (from memory) is now about 287,000.

    Kershaw’s plan is to have one A&E for 750,000 people.

    It seems likely that we need at least three A&Es in this area and possibly four if the population continues to grow.

  18. “At 1.7MILLION the (50% admin and 50% clinical) the NHS (incl GPs) is the 4th largest employer IN THE WORLD (after the Chinese army, Walmart and the Indian railways).”

    Yes, that’s because it’s a NATIONAL health service. (the clue is in the name).

    If we split the NHS in some way (perhaps the boundaries of the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms) then the individual components would move way, way down the table. Fantastic! Of course, the administrative costs of doing this would be vast. Where would I stand as a Mercian living Kent? And what about all those spongers from Wessex? And all because you want to get us out of the Guinness BOOK of Records…..

    “It costs £126billion pa exceeded only by Pension payments (old age, excluding civil service) of 138bn. with Defence spending at a mere 46bn which comes after welfare payments of 62bn (2013 budget).”

    Do you know what £126 billion looks like?

    No, neither do I.

    What I do know from data released by the Office for National Statistics is that:

    a) In 2010 spending on public health care was 117.33 billion
    b) 117.33 billion was 8.0 percent of UK GDP
    c) In 2009 spending on public health care was 8.2 percent of UK GDP – so as a proportion of national income we spent LESS on public health care in 2010 than we did in 2009
    d) Together with private spending Total spending on health care in the UK was 9.6 percent of UK GDP

    Do you know what percent of GDP other countries spend on health care?

    No, I didn’t think you would.

    However I do know: The median figure of 9.5%. That is, the UK is just in the top half of the international league for health spending.

    Do you know what percent of GDP the US spending on health care?

    17.4% of GDP

    Of course, US GDP per capita is a greater that UK GDP per capita so in absolute terms US health spending per person is a lot higher than in the UK.

    And yet they deliver poorer results. On the other hand the US Private Illness Service is incredibly profitable….

    Even better because it’s split up into lots of ‘independent’ units it’s much smaller than the Chinese army.

    • richard

      C’mon George I am still waiting for you to reveal the government’s true strategy.

      • George Hallam

        We all have a ‘vested interest’ in having access to medical care when it is required.
        So defending the NHS makes sense for people in the private sector as well as for those in the public sector.

        For example, the NHS provides a vital safety net for millions of small business people.
        If you want to get an idea of how thing would be without the NHS look as what happens in the United States.

        “The bankruptcy statistics in America are alarming. The past few decades have seen a dramatic rise in the number of people that are unable to pay off their debts, and Congress has recently addressed the issue with legislation that makes it harder to qualify for this status. Following is a list of the most common causes of bankruptcy in America today.
        1. Medical Expenses
        A study done at Harvard University indicates that this is the biggest cause of bankruptcy, representing 62% of all personal bankruptcies. One of the interesting caveats of this study shows that 78% of filers had some form of health insurance, thus bucking the myth that medical bills affect only the uninsured.
        Rare or serious diseases or injuries can easily result in hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical bills – bills that can quickly wipe out savings and retirement accounts, college education funds and home equity. Once these have been exhausted, bankruptcy may be the only shelter left, regardless of whether the patient or his or her family was able to apply health coverage to a portion of the bill or not.”

        http://finance.yahoo.com/news/pf_article_109143.html

        Or view this video

      • George Hallam

        It’s not a secret: it’s the same as the last goverment.

        Under Labour

        “The Department of Health created a commercial directorate to oversee the plan to privatise the NHS. A group of passionate market advocates were hired to transform a public sector institution into a target for private sector takeover. People such as Mark Britnell, who was the Department of Health’s director general for commissioning when Labour was in office and who later joined KPMG – able to sell his experience in government to the world of management consulting – have now been outed as agents for the merciless dismemberment of the NHS. There was a revolving door between civil servants in the department and McKinsey, KPMG and Deloitte. Ex-ministers, such as Patricia Hewitt and Lord Warner, traded their knowledge of NHS privatisation with those who could benefit in the commercial sector.

        “Doctors’ leaders were little better. The British Medical Association’s John Chisholm and Simon Fradd, who led negotiations with government to revise the GP contract in 2002, won a huge victory by making out-of-hours care for patients optional. Nine out of 10 GPs stopped offering services to patients from 6.30pm to 8am. This withdrawal of NHS care allowed private providers to step in and take over. After Chisholm and Fradd had succeeded in putting out-of-hours care out for private tender, they set up Concordia Health, a private company, that offered to run those very same services, only now at a profit to themselves.”

    • richard

      Still nowt George? Anyways in response to your ‘facts above’ The fall in public heath spending from 09 to 10 looks as correction back to more normal growth rates as the increase in health spending from 08 to 09 looks outsized relative to trend. Moreover you are confusing real and nominal measures. The GDP growth rate assumed here is 4.6% growth in 2010 coupled with a nominal rise in heath spending. Real (inflation adjusted) GDP growth was actually no where near this figure. Indeed in 2009 real and nominal GDP contracted thus boosting the 2009 health spending/GDP figures.

      What does 126 billion quid look like? It looks like a great big pile of someone else’s cash.

      • “Moreover you are confusing real and nominal measures. The GDP growth rate assumed here is 4.6% growth in 2010 coupled with a nominal rise in heath spending. Real (inflation adjusted) GDP growth was actually no where near this figure. Indeed in 2009 real and nominal GDP contracted thus boosting the 2009 health spending/GDP figures.”

        I’m afraid you are the one who is confused.

  19. Since we are all in this together, let’s all get to the demonstration on Saturday.

  20. This demonstration was highly significant not just for Lewisham but for the whole country.

    Let’s be clear, the proposal the close the Accident and Emergency department at Lewisham Hospital has nothing to do with local conditions; it is driven by national policy.

    The immediate cause of the proposed closure stems from the bankrupting of the South London Healthcare NHS Trust. Under powers introduced under Gordon Brown in 2009 the Government has appointed an administrator to run the trust and make it ‘viable’.

    This seems crazy bit there is method in this madness. The idea is to get people to accept the logic of the market when thinking about health. Once this has been accomplished any debate about health care has to take place within the boundaries of rigid monetary limits and the objective becomes ‘financial viability’ rather than anything to do with what happens to people.

    This is part of a long term strategy of destroying the National Health Service. This is more deep-seated and long-term than a whim of the present Government. This is a project of the British establishment as a whole (aka ‘the powers that be’).

    How do you boil a frog? The popular story is that if a frog is placed in boiling water, it will jump out, but if it is placed in cold water that is slowly heated, it will not perceive the danger and will be cooked to death.

    Of course the trick is to heating is sufficiently gradual for the unfortunate frog not to notice.

    So far the attack on the NHS has been progressing at a slow pace over the last two decades or so. The bankrupting of an entire Health trust and the ensuing cuts represents a clear change of pace. The people of Lewisham have noticed. If we can continue campaigning on the scale of Saturday the 24th November then we can alert frogs all over the country. This will mean that the powers that be, to use David Cameron’s phrase, REALLY won’t be able to’ carry on in the old way’.

    This is serious stuff.

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